PREVIEW YG Archive - Text Messages - BUYING a MICROSCOPE --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 34596 From: "wildwestmilford" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Steve THANKS for the reply (I'm reposting the message I sent to you in the hopes someone else will chime in) I'm going to be looking at spores to ID mushrooms. Anyway, I've been searching around and I think I can get any of the following for less than $300: Contestant #1: Aus Jena Laboval 4 Binocular Stereo Microscope. Made in the German Democratic Republic. Carl Zeiss Microscope. 4 Objectives: Plan 100X, 40X, 10X and 3.2X. Built in Halogen illuminator. This is a used microscope. There is some light scratching on the stage area and a tiny screw is missing from the mechanism that holds slides. Powers on. Seems to be in good order Contestant #2: AO Spencer PhaseStar 5 obective binocular microscopeThere are 5 objectives on this microscope, they read: 1.) AO spencer 10x N.A.. 25 Cat. 1076 2.) AO spencer 45x N.A.. 66 Cat. 1116 3.) AO spencer 45x N.A.. 66 Cat. 1238 Dark Phase 4.) AO spencer 100x N.A 1.25 OIL IMM Cat. 1079 Dark Phase 5.) AO spencer 100x N.A 1.25 OIL IMM Cat. 1227 Dark Phase Contestant #3: ($250) American Optical One-Fifty microscope. It is a former university lab microscope. It comes with Bausch & Lomb WF10X/18 eyepieces; Spencer 97X objective N.A. 1.25 oil imm; Spencer 43X objective n.a. .66; Spencer 10X objective, n.a. .25 with infinity symbol; and a B&L 3.5 X, 30 mm, 0.09 objective. Also comes with lamp (works); stage and condensor. Part of what I'd like to do is take some photos so I guess I need one that I can easily get parts for and upgrade to trinocular...and speaking of parts that's obviously an IMPORTANT issue, being able to replace lamps and such. Anyway thanks again if you can help. +------------- 34597 From: Steven Born Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Hi The Phase Star sounds great depending on the price and condition. Are these available to actually touch and play with or are they on eBay? You could sell the extra 45x and 100x phase and get other phase objectives. On these scopes, you need to ask Steve Nelley and Gordon, the AO experts Steve Born +------------- 34598 From: "wildwestmilford" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Thanks again. Steve since you are using the scope for almost exactly what I need it for I think you'd be the one to ask for a few specific models to be on the lookout for. I'm going to drive myself crazy if I have to research each and every model that comes up for sale or auction as to suitability. If I had 3-4 that would be perfect for my application then I'd only have to worry about condition and price. +------------ 34599 From: "Jim Bosley" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? WildWest: Don't know how good the Laboval or the 150 are, but if the Series 10 is in good shape it's a terrific scope. But I don't read something in your note that concerns me. ebay can be a great place to get a scope and sometimes (and only sometimes) you get a super deal. ebay prices are essentially wholesale (unless an especially needy or inexpert person bids something up to or beyond retail). But it is also a dumping ground. "This scope was on the deicing salt pile on the floor of the garage in Minnesota for the last 15 years" is not what you read in the ads, but it is possible the scope has exactly that history. On the other hand, you might get a scope that was barely used by a doc in med school, and has been properly stored for 50 years, and is pristine. I've received scopes where the chrome has corroded off the surface of the objectives (possibly off a Navy ship in San Diego. Strangely, the plan optics were still great!), with a beautiful outward appearance (although the prisms in the bino head had corrosion on the coatings and the view was cloudy and had poor contrast), with focus mechanisms glued fast with oxidized grease, with eyepieces corroded into eyetubes, with lenses "blown" by irreparable delamination, etc. Also have received stuff that kind of works (e.g. a somewhat sticky focus mechanism) well enough that you don't want to do the necessary complete overhaul. That can be more frustrating than something that is completely broken. They all looked fine in the ebay pictures. Now I have been able to fix a lot of these things (I enjoy it), and I have gotten some great unexpected deals. If you like and are very good at fixing fine and complex mechanical mechanisms, you can afford to absorb the loss of receiving something completely blown, and you don't mind the acquisition of "the perfect scope" being a journey and not a destination, then ebay is great. If you want to spend more time looking at mushroom spores (is this the correct terminology?) than refurbishing scopes, I think others may have good ideas for new scopes. If I recall, Gordon (who is way more expert than I am) suggests Lomo as a very good price/performance new scope, correct? Jim PS By the way, I live in "The Mushroom Capital of the United States", Kennett Square, PA. +------------- 34600 From: "Jim Bosley" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Hi, Agree, the AO sounds pretty good, although model 1079 is not a phase objective, so be careful for other mislabeling. Also, Steve, to "get other phase objectives" on ebay can be a frustrating and expensive proposition - one went for (I think I recall correctly) over $200 the other day and a scope with full plan phase objectives went for over $500. I am the owner of at least three AO phase lenses that need repair or are blown. So don't assume you can sell extra parts - they may not be any good. WildWest/all: Is phase useful for mycology? I think I've seen darkfield for some photos. Is DF useful? WildWest, now that you've evaluated a few scope listings and have refamiliarized yourself with scope technology I suggest starting your search the other way 'round: Specify what you need first, rather than evaluating specific scopes. Once you create your list, evaluating each prospective scope should be easier. My list is below. Hope this helps. Jim My specs for a scope would include: 1) Well-designed and well-made brand with good optics(Zeiss West, Leitz, Nikon, Olympus, AO, Reichert, Lomo, (Zeiss Jena,?) others 2) Must have lots of new or used accessories available (pretty much narrows to those scopes named above). 2) Should come complete with all accessories, e.g. lampholders, slide gripper, etc. (alternately, "I'm willing to assemble a whole scope piecewise via ebay purchases") 3) Must be capable of Koehler illumination 4) Must have magnification range of 40-1000 (or whatever) 5) Is for transillumination and must have brightfield capability 6) Must have (or there must be available) darkfield, phase contrast, fluorescence, epi illumination etc. Once you've put the thought into what exactly you want now, what you can acquire later, how much you want to fiddle, how much you want to pay, how much time you want to put into searching for parts and waiting for the right part, and how much time you want to be doing viewing, it should be easier to assess the scope options in front of you. Whew, sorry for the long winded answer, but I've spend a large fraction of my time fixing scopes since I started in this avocation, and I've acquired quite an accidental stockpile of stuff. "Steven Born" wrote: > The Phase Star sounds great depending on the price and condition. > Are these available to actually touch and play with or are they on > eBay? You could sell the extra 45x and 100x phase and get other phase > objectives. +-------------- 34602 From: "wildwestmilford" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Thanks for the responses. Although I'm brand new at this I recognize the importance of brand names in optics and the importance of being able to find bulbs and replacement parts and accessories. Is there a way to tell if a scope has Koehler just by looking at it? Is there an additional piece by the condenser or diaphram or anything? Another important feature for me is a scope that lends itself to photography, it looks like the AO Spencer I mentioned is ready for a trinocular tube. I think you are right, that I need a list of requirements, and then maybe someone could point out a model or two. The problem is that I can't find out which models have which features without a ton of research on each. Sometimes if you are a newbie like me you don;t even know how to figure out which model is being offered! I mean I had no idea that AO Spencer was a "model 10"...so you can see the dilemma I have. What might be a suggestion that fits the following criteria: 1. quality 2. bulbs, parts readily available 3. koehler 4. lends itself to photography 5. Darkfield and phase contrast available 6. uses standard eyepieces, objectives, etc. +----------- 34603 From: "wildwestmilford" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Double layer stage? Infinity corrected? Does oil kill? Reticle? 1. Would someone be kind enough to explain what a double layer stage is and why I might need one? 2. Why would I need an infinity corrected lens (and does it help with photography)? Also, I think I remember reading that if you do get a scope that has inifinity corrected lenses you must only use that scopes' objectives, i.e. you can't put any objective in there and have to stay with the ones you have. True? 3. Can immersion oil destroy non-oil objectives? 4. I will probably want a reticle to meaure things in micrometers, is this easy to find and add to most scopes? THANKS! Sorry for all the questions, I'm new at this. +----------------- 34605 From: DonH Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? "wildwestmilford" wrote: > Thanks for the responses. Although I'm brand new at > this I recognize the importance of brand names in optics and the > importance of being able to find bulbs and replacement parts and > accessories. . . . Hi, You might be one of the people "we" talk about when we're talking about someone who might want to avoid ebay until they're more experienced. I was waiting for someone else to say it, but you might do better by dealing with a reputable vendor who reconditions, sells, and services scopes. One such vendor is Nightingale, and there is at least one phase contrast offering right now: http://www.microscopesfromnightingale.com... Another list favorite is Mel Sobel: http://www.melsobel.com/ There are others, and I have no affiliations with either merchant except as a satisfied customer or friend of satisfied customer. Some mailing list members may also contact you. The key is that the vendor should be beginner-friendly, have some sort of limited warranty or return policy, assert that they at *check out* their scopes, if not refurbish them; and be reasonably priced, though that can be a matter of opinion. I think Nightingale's prices can be a little on the high side for some items, but then again, if I had the money, I'd be happy to spend $5,800 on an Ortholux Pol that is complete and guaranteed to work with a right of return than spend 3 years putting one together on ebay with a lot of stress and heartache and dealing with some dubious characters and fighting with scavengers and wannabe resellers. In the end, you need to make the decision where to buy, but remember that ebay is a flea market, where you might find a competent professional seller who is expanding their market as well as back alley dealers, and most dangerous of all the hobbyists who know just enough to be dangerous and can unintentionally shaft you. First, you need to make a list of what you want it to do, in order of priority. You can call one of the above-mentioned merchants to discuss what you want. You can do some web searches for other vendors, and when you call them, you will find out quickly whether they will meet the criteria stated above and for sure whether they are beginner-friendly or not. Best of luck, and welcome to the list! Don +--------------- 34607 From: "Steve Neeley" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Nightingale has both an AO 120 and a Leitz SM, both outfitted for phase, both reconditioned 'as new', backed by warranty, etc. The AO is listed at $1250 and the Leitz at 1400. Either scope will be great for phase, BF, DF, etc. I'm quite sure the price is negotiable to some extent, etc. These are professional folks and will try to get you what you need: http://www.microscopesfromnightingale.com/cgi- bin/shop/Reconditioned_Microscopes!Compound_Med-Bio.htm Why not call them and talk it over with them. Steve +------------- 34608 From: "Jim Bosley" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? > Is there a > way to tell if a scope has Koehler just by looking at it? At the risk of oversimplification, you need to have a focused (or focusable) condensed light source with a field iris, and a condenser in a rack that can be moved up and down. If you have the later, and the scope accepts a mirror, you can do Koehler with external light sources that are focusable and have an iris. The AO Series 4, 10, 20, 110, 120, and I think others have these features. Both scopes that Steve pointed out on the Nightingale site are Koehler capable. Koehler allows you to get the optimal resolution and rejects from what your eye sees the specs of dust and lens/mirror blemishes in an optimal way. Jim +------------- 34609 From: "Steve Neeley" Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Whoops, I see Don beat me to it -- sorry Don, I hadn't seen your post . . . Anyway, as Don pointed out, if you have the funds, you can save yourself a lot of trouble and time by going to a dealer. Nightingale is a good one. Either one of the scopes pointed out are great Phase, DF, and BF scopes. The AO will be cheaper to outfit for DF at high power and you can't beat AO's built-in Betrand lens, etc. But the Leitz would be very nice with great phase too! But, truly, I have no idea what is needed for mushroom spores . . . Steve +------------ 34610 From: Steven Born Date: Jan 14, 2007 Subject: Re: Someone take a peek at these microscopes for me? Actually, the brand and model do not matter, as much, as the capabilities. You want a quality scope, upgradable or already having phase contrast, for the future, and one you can easily find a trinocular head for You'll wind up looking at lots of mycelia and fruiting bodied, which is easier with phase Steve Born +------------- 34658 From: "wild westmilford" Date: Jan 16, 2007 Subject: stereo scopes- zoom vs. fixed? help?! I'm wondering if there are any hard and fast rules about buying a stereo zoom scope. I've heard from some in the know that since they aren't as complex as a compound scope you can get away with a little more. I like the idea of a zoom scope better but I've heard they usually aren't as clear or crisp which is important because I want to eventually take photos. Also, does anyone know what "zoom range" is as expressed by a ratio (26:1 for example)? Finally, as far as eyepieces go, I take it that with a 10 vs 20X eyepiece you really aren't getting any more detail, just blowing up detail that you can already see with the 10x. Thanks! +------------ 34660 From: "femtoscope" Date: Jan 16, 2007 Subject: Re: stereo scopes- zoom vs. fixed? help?! Hello WildWest, Two entirely different animals, compound scopes vs. stereo microscopes. I.E.: a.. Stereo microscope is designed to provide a 3D image of a three dimensional subject, at magnifications typically lower that 200x MAX. b.. The numerical aperture (read: resolution) of the stereo microscope - even research grade expensive units - is much lower than a compound microscope. This is how the much longer working distance is acheived. c.. The image erection optics, for the zoom function, actually limit some light transmission and depth of field. A zoom stereo microscope will not perform, optically, as well as a similar caliber stereo microscope with fixed lens(es) Zoom range in ratio, i.e. 6:1, has to do with the optical zoom range of the instrument. If an AO 570 StereoStar zooms from 0.7x to 4.2x, it has a 6:1 zoom ratio - multiply 0.7x by 6 = 4.2x. Application is the key. High mag images of slides - compound scope. Low mag images of plants, circuit boards, whole insects in their original 3D shape - stereo microscope. Good luck! Gregg +---------------- 34661 From: "forgerii" Date: Jan 16, 2007 Subject: Re: stereo scopes- zoom vs. fixed? help?! I really like the "Zoom." I have a B&L stereozoom 4 and a B&L stereozoom 7 with phototube. The school I retired from has some Swift and generic chinese stereoscopes. They are no where near the scope that the B&Ls are. Before I retired I often had my SZ4, an AO Cycloptic and one of the asian scopes side by side. The detail and contrast in the B&L and AO were markedly better. The SZ4 has no phototube (is NOT trinocular) and is not handy for photography. I love the SZ7 with phototube. The SZ7 also has higher NA objectives and better resolution. The &-1 zoom ratio is also very nice. I like 15X oculars. I see a little more with my old eyes when I use them compared to 10X oculars. The 20X shows me no more. B&L SZ4s are common on ebay and cheap. You may need a professional cleaning and alignment on any ebay stereoscope. I spent about $250 to get my SZ7 professionally overhauled by Mc Bain Instruments. It was worth every penny. I built my SZ4 from a bucket of parts. There are lots of parts for the B&L stereozooms, and they are worth rebuilding. That is not the case with the "educational" level asian scopes. I would really LOVE a Ziess Stemi or other high-end stereo scope but I asm happy with my B&Ls. There are now a lot of high-end stereoscopes out there that will out perform the B&L and AO scopes, but they are expensive. +--------------- 34662 From: "wildwestmilford" Date: Jan 16, 2007 Subject: Re: stereo scopes- zoom vs. fixed? help?! Thanks, that's exactly the info I needed. I'm so tempted to buy this scope: http://store.amscope.com/sm-2tz.html because it looks like everything I;d need for a wide variety of applications. Any thoughts on this one? +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 35076 From: "dnldg" Date: Feb 1, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? After a few days reading some messages here, I get the impression that a used microscope, in good condition, is actually a much better deal than spending $$$ for a new one. I was leaning strongly on gettting a brand-new Lomo but now that I've started looking around, I see some pretty good prices on re-conditioned brand-name scopes -some of which must have cost a small fortune back when they were new. Is this the ideal solution -to buy a good reconditioned microscope instead of brand-new? At present, I have nothing, not even a "toy" microscope +----------------- 35078 From: Steven Born Date: Feb 1, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? Get a reconditioned AO I'm a Nikon person because of my bias from my days in graduate school and university research. There I used, and learned to love Nikons. AOs have better durability (Nikons have plastic gear problems), more parts available, more accessories, and more people who know how to maintain them I have used AOs in teaching at secondary schools, and find them very easy to use, and they were built like tanks. I also used Zeiss Standard phase contrast scopes in grad school, and they are great, also. But the price!!! Steve Born +------------------- 35096 From: Gordon Couger Date: Feb 2, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? I thought I had found the best deal in a microscope when I gave $150 for a scope the seller bought at and auction and had no Idea what was but a Nachet 300. If you search the net for Nachet 300 anything that's in English comes back to me. I didn't know much more about it than than he did. But when it had two slider in the tube I tried a polarizer in the light path and it Turned out to be a DIC scope. One of our members that was a new comer like you did a lot better. He got paid to haul off a DIC Metalgraphic scope. He found a buyer for $4,500 and ended up with interferences scope of some kind. Dumpster diving can be a very very productive pass time if you in the right neighborhood. The stories of $30 Zeiss universals in a San Jose Thrift store are true. I am 1,000 miles away from any where that had anything like that and theres ice out side. At least I don't have 200 hungry cows waiting for me in the morning to bring them feed so they won't freeze to death tomorrow night and break ice so the have water to drink. My son just called and said he had a hard day at work and he doesn't like the 50 degree weather in San Jose so he and his wive were at the airport on the way to Mexico City. The will get back just in time to leave for China for the new year. And I have their dog to keep. Gordon +--------------- 35116 From: "mlieber507" Date: Feb 2, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? Hi,Be sure to but the used scope from a reliable dealer like Nightingale, for instance. Do not buy your first scope, used or new, through Ebay. Mel +------------- 35126 From: "dnldg" Date: Feb 3, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? I found an Spencer AO for only about $70...it's on the way. I can decide whether I will take this hobby further, but I'm already looking at some of those re-conditioned units from that Nightingale website and those Leitz SM binos look cool. I read somewhere they are 170mm instead of the standard 160mm, but that's still ok for me. Does the Leitz SM have a filter holder somewhere in the condenser assembly? Daniel +--------------- 35130 From: "Jim Bosley" Date: Feb 3, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? Hi Daniel, What type of AO/Spencer scope did you snag? It seems that for almost any model if it's complete, in good mechanical shape (or you are a good, careful tinkerer and can carefully clean and lube the thing) and the optics are clear (or cleanable) you have a nice bargain and an excellent scope to begin exploration. The best thing about AO/ Spencer stuff, after their build quality and optics, is that if you need a part, you almost always can find one on ebay. Unless its a Series 20 DIC with all DIC objectives and optics. I have two Leitzes that chronologically bracket the SM. An old black Laborlux (in the original wooden case, with all the original equipment, terrific optics, and documentable provenance of one medical doctor owner since it was purchased new in 1956) and a newer looking beige/putty SM-Lux (late 1970s or early 1980s?). Both of these use 170mm t.l. objectives, but to be honest, the SM-Lux came with the more modern 160mm optics. I am gradually buying the "proper" 170mm Plan and NPl lenses for it as I can afford to but to be honest, the 160mm lenses give views that, to me, are indistinguishable from the "correct" 170mm stuff. Both scopes give terrific views and are very easy to operate. A Leitz darkfield condenser for the Laborlux gives terrific views with the low mag lenses. If you are considering buying a Leitz, be aware that there are two classes of 170mm t.l. lenses: the older 37mm and the newer 45mm parfocal. If you mix these two on the same scope you will be doing a lot of racking back and forth, with likely damage something when you forget and swing an objective into the stage or slide. You may speculate how I know this (luckily, it was just a cheap, commercial slide). In fact, 45mm parfocal scopes often will not rack down enough to use a 37mm objective, so folks use an 8mm spacer (or the more expensive solution: a Leitz 8mm adapter with a correcting lens, model number PLEZY). My Laborlux is 37mm, the SM-Lux is 45. Anyway, just reinforcing your impression that the Leitz scopes are really, really nice. Even the 50-year-old ones. Which, upon reflection, makes me very happy. Jim +-------------- 35132 From: "dnldg" Date: Feb 3, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? It's an AO monocular model 262, presumably complete and in good shape and until it actually arrives, I cannot confirm it's condition -but it's only $70+ dollars. This scope was suppose to only gauge my interest, but I'm already getting the feeling that it will be the first of several scopes that I may eventually end up collecting. I don't intend to have a large collection, just a small number say 5 or 6 at most. I currently don't own a microscope but I have very fond memories of the "toy" version I had when I was growing up and now I can feel that interest growing inside quite strongly only this time I can get some "real" microscopes. My 1st scope hasn't even arrived yet and I'm already thinking about what my next scope should be...I want it to be a bino this time and I have two candidates so far: 1.) Leitz SM like this one: http://www.microscopesfromnightingale.com/cgi-bin/shop/commerce.cgi?pid=29 2.) Lomo BMH4-BF: http://www.opticsplanet.net/mulbm.html# Yes, back to the Lomo. I'm curious what anyone might have to say about my two choices above and which should I pick for a bino... Daniel +----------------- 35133 From: "Steve Neeley" Date: Feb 3, 2007 Subject: Re: New or used ? If the 262 is a Series 2, it is anything but a toy microscope. A direct competitor to the SM you mention. Same era, maybe a little later? Anyway, your best bet may be just to put a binoc head on it -- they appear on eBay from time to time, or a member may offer you one. These are excellent scopes, fully upgradable to phase, DF, etc. See http://xmission.com/~psneeley/Personal/Microscope.htm for lots more info, etc. You will end up spending less, IMHO, upgrading a Series 2 and will have a very fine scope (in fact, you probably already have one on the way -- nothing wrong with a monoc). P.S., you can use the LOMO objectives on it if you must have LOMO :-) Leitz will probaly work too? Although they may demand periplan eyepieces? BTW, I have a Leitz scope, and I have some LOMO objectives, and I have a Series 2 (and a Series 10), so I'm not an AO bigot (well, maybe a little) :-) but they are great little scopes. I see them on eBay going for 'pennies' and I wonder how little 'price' seems to reflect 'value' in these older AO scopes. FWIW, Steve +----------------- 35134 From: "ruachsheavens05" Date: Feb 3, 2007 Subject: Possible scopes for beginners or newbies We have been discussing alot about what scopes would be good for newcomers and that the potential for problems with the imports is pretty high. What about microscopes from companies like Meade and Celestron? They make pretty good telecopes - has anyone tried their microscopes? the meade model looks almost identical to a scope that Precison world sells on ebay, but it is quite a bit more expensive. Do you think is is the same microscope, just with a Meade sticker on it? and finally, when the time comes for me to upgrade my scope- which may be soon if my childrens' interest continues to increase, is there a good place to buy used name brand microscopes? IS there a buy and sell section to this list? Thanks RP +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------